Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

Last post 07-08-2009, 12:58 AM by Grand Patriarch. 1310 replies.
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  •  06-10-2009, 12:56 PM 618917

    Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    I am involving the community a little bit earlier in the process this time around and sharing the first pass balance changes that we are testing internally at the moment.  

    Your feedback and discussion are welcome as long as everyone stays polite and gracious to each other.  This thread will be heavily moderated so that we get the best feedback, so if your post gets removed, please try to rephrase it in a more constructive manner.

    Caveat: The balance items are still somewhat in flux and as such I am not posting the exact numbers we are testing but rather the general balance ideas we are testing.  note: We will share final numbers when the title update is closer to completion when we write the final title update notes.

     *** Note: Updated with final patch notes for the balance changes that I am sending in for final function/ bug testing ***

    Balance changes:: 

    1.  Gauss warthog gauss cannon damage bonus against units with heavy armor (Scorpions, Wraiths, Scarabs, Locusts) reduced so that tanks will stay as a viable option to counter warthogs.  

    Final:: Gauss damage with a 0.6 modifier (down from 0.8), which is a 50.0% damage boost instead of a 100% damage boost against tanks over earlier warthogs.

     

    2.  Warthog build time slightly increased to restrict how fast players can mass and replace warthogs during the game.

    Final:: Warthogs will take 3 additional seconds to the build (25 seconds).

     

    3.  Anders bonus to tech build rate reduced to further balance the leader. 

    Final:: Anders research bonus changed to be 75% of the base time to research techs instead of the previous 50%.  (the cost reduction remains at 50%)  

     

    4.  Base turrets attack and health boosted slightly to increase turret viability in early and late game.

    Final:: We finalized on a 5% boost to base turret health and damage after extensive testing we feel that a small buff was warranted but that overall the turrets can function just fine in the early game but the player has to choose to use them and sacrifice some supplies.

     

    5.  Elephant health increased to improve survivability and viability as a unit.

    Final:: Elephants gain a 20% boost to health, which when combined with the infantry grenade buff works out rather well.

     

    6.  Grenade/ Plasma grenade / RPG damage against medium armor (warthogs, ghosts, choppers, wolverines and cobras) increased to both better balance marines/ grunts against warthogs and to improve marines overall against players who try to turtle with wolverines and cobras.

    Final:: Grenades gains 25% additonal damage against medium armor ground vehicles.

     

    7.  Recycle basic cost return fixed to be 50% for constructed buildings.  (While a technically a bug, this directly impacts many slightly exploitive strategies)

     

    *** Other items we have investigated internally ***

    8. Investigated changes to the Arbiter rage power for heal and strength, but with internal data and looking closely at what we had time to do for the upcoming title update, we have decided the data did not warrent a change to the Arbiter at this time.

    9. Investigated mainline infantry base damage against air but looking at the numbers and the data from games played, we feel that the infantry are within bounds for their role at this time.

    10. Investigating reports of shield generator exploit that causes shields covenant base shields to re-raise during combat, we have a repro (thanks to those that sent in the repro steps) and we are looking at a fix now to hopefully include in the title update.  

    11. As I have noted before the reinforcement exploit with cutter MAC blast is fixed in this title update.

    *** One additonal change which impacts balance ***

    12. *new*  Locked down bases when unlocked will now release units inside very quickly, which means that when under attack a player can now build a fighting force while locked down and then release them all at once instead of having them destroyed peacemeal.  Fighting off a rush or hiding what you a building against scouts is now a viable choice for both the UNSC and the Covenant.

     

    note: there are other bug fixes in the title update as well but those will be covered when we wrap up the title update and write the final patch notes. 

  •  06-10-2009, 1:00 PM 618921 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    I am glad that we are being informed this time around; thank you, Robot! All of these ideas sound great to me, but what about giving points to the attacker if the defender destroys a building in the middle of combat?

     

     

    Edit: Also, will the shield generator glitch be fixed? Sometimes, if an extra shield generator is being built while the base is under attack, the new shield generator will immidately recharge the base's shields, even if the base is under constant fire.


    Im Allhere:
    Nocbl2:

    "Oh, hey, that saggy old cripple is too fast. Lets screw him over in a month."
    his chair ran low on batteries from zooming around all day long.
  •  06-10-2009, 1:03 PM 618923 in reply to 618921

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    yea thanks for keeping us in the loop now and really you guys are fixing the grenade and rpg? i mean its all about using them now strategically and your going to create a deadly new infintry rush if the rpg is made better its only tech 2? you can get out a rather larger force of marines pretty quickly
    All human actions have one or more of these seven causes: chance, nature, compulsions, habit, reason, passion, desire
  •  06-10-2009, 1:03 PM 618924 in reply to 618921

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Thanks for actually listening.  Cutter gets a slight buff in the marine / elephant department.  Anders gets nerfed.  Guass gets nerfed.  Everything we have been stating finally in a title update!  TY
    iEchoic - 1v1 Gamebattles Acct.:
    GG (Prince), you have a better anders mirror than me. I'm picking up a new leader.

    Pw~ J4883d 1~ t3h f4c3!!one1!1
  •  06-10-2009, 1:04 PM 618926 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    /hug.

    The grenade thing is interesting...now my expendable idiots...erm...well trained men can fight off more units! Hooray! Wait...what about gremlins? Do I still need 5 marines to kill 1?

    Oh, and I like the elephant. Now I feel encouraged to actually fight with it. Hide and go seek is fun, but Mr. Trojan is better.


    What you know is now wrong.
    The truth can't set you free because your bound to the lie. Give up, the electricity that binds you shocks your very existence. I win.
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  •  06-10-2009, 1:05 PM 618928 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    While I'm not psyched about #7 (mostly because I abuse this just as much as anyone else does), I think it will help slow down people who try to rush to tech 3 and 4 unit upgrades significantly. And I am very excited about #5. This will make games with/against Cutter very interesting. =)
    Things that won't help your case when making suggestions about Halo Wars:
    "Well, in Halo 3..."
    "...something similar to what Halo 3 has..."
    You get the idea.
  •  06-10-2009, 1:06 PM 618930 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Timotron...is it 50% for a building even if its partially destroyed? It cost the builder the same no matter what..so I would think we should still get the monies back..or is it degenerative based off the health of the building?

    Thank you for reaching out in advance! It's greatly appreciated.

    Love the turret buff...


    Im Allhere:
    any attack before 20 min is a rush. attacking before people have everything max tech is just not fair.

  •  06-10-2009, 1:07 PM 618931 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Timotron:

    I am involving the community a little bit earlier in the process this time around and sharing the first pass balance changes that we are testing internally at the moment.  

    Your feedback and discussion are welcome as long as everyone stays polite and gracious to each other.  This thread will be heavily moderated so that we get the best feedback, so if your post gets removed, please try to rephrase it in a more constructive manner.

    Caveat: The balance items are still somewhat in flux and as such I am not posting the exact numbers we are testing but rather the general balance ideas we are testing.  note: We will share final numbers when the title update is closer to completion when we write the final title update notes.

     

    Balance changes:: 

    1.  Gauss warthog gauss cannon damage bonus against units with heavy armor (Scorpions, Wraiths, Scarabs, Locusts) reduced so that tanks will stay as a viable option to counter warthogs.

    YAY!

    2.  Warthog build time slightly increased to restrict how fast players can mass and replace warthogs during the game.

    Really? I think that covenant leaders will become to powerfull with out the hogs. I know there is a infantry buff, but realisticly, infantry doesnt counter leaders well enough. Hogs are UNSC only early option for collecting creates, harassing, capturing bases, beating leaders/ early rush etc. I think longer build times would be to much of a nerf.

    3.  Anders bonus to tech build rate reduced to further balance the leader.

    Despends how much. I wouldnt like to see to much of a build time decrease

    4.  Base turrets attack and health boosted slightly to increase turret viability in early and late game.

    YAY! Can you add a feature to allow us to tell turrets what to target?

    5.  Elephant health increased to improve survivability and viability as a unit.

    Cool. Depending how much of an increase, Cutter should be a decent leader.

    6.  Grenade/ Plasma grenade / RPG damage against medium armor (warthogs, ghosts, choppers, wolverines and cobras) increased to both better balance marines/ grunts against warthogs and to improve marines overall against players who try to turtle with wolverines and cobras.

    Was that really enough of a problem to give infantry a buff? Im all for a infantry buff but if thats the main reason for it then your buffing infantry for the wrong reasons and could give them a dull buff.

    7.  Recycle basic cost return fixed to be 50% for constructed buildings.  (While a technically a bug, this directly impacts many slightly exploitive strategies)

    Doesnt bother me to much.

    My thoughts in bold


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    2v2 - 50
    3v3 - 47

    Best player evar!!!1!
  •  06-10-2009, 1:07 PM 618932 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Good to see the turrets made better, I might actually build them now. Thanks. :D
  •  06-10-2009, 1:09 PM 618933 in reply to 618932

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    The choice was between upgrading a turret or letting you aim it. We went with upgrading a turret.
  •  06-10-2009, 1:11 PM 618936 in reply to 618933

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Aloysius:The choice was between upgrading a turret or letting you aim it. We went with upgrading a turret.

    Oh, in that case, turret buf FTW.


    1v1 - 48
    2v2 - 50
    3v3 - 47

    Best player evar!!!1!
  •  06-10-2009, 1:11 PM 618937 in reply to 618933

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Aloysius:The choice was between upgrading a turret or letting you aim it. We went with upgrading a turret.

    Any reason why not both? Wouldn't really make it overpowered or anything....

  •  06-10-2009, 1:13 PM 618941 in reply to 618924

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Circle, we're getting almost everything we asked for looked into in this patch baby! Cutter is being buffed FINALLY! Hopefully they'll play around with his unit costs.

    Thank you Robot for listening to the fans. Here are a few more suggestions for Cutter. I am personally championing the cause of Cutter since he is the leader that everyone agrees probably needs the most work.

    Cutter

    • Elephant cost should be reduced to 300 resources.
      • If you make the Elephant stronger, as you have already noted that Robot is looking into, and make it cost less by reducing it to 300 resources then I ask nothing else be done with Cutter. If those two conditions are met I feel that everything necessary has been done for him. I feel that those two changes alone are enough to balance Cutter.
      • Further reasoning to reducing Elephant cost -  When Elephants cost 300 it allows Cutter to build 1 Elephant 2 Supply Pads and a tower to defend from rushes. Since Cutter is almost utterly incapable of rushing he should at least be able to build a tower while building Supply Pads without the need to collect extra resources around his base.
    • Reduce the costs of Cutter's Marines and Flamethrowers by 25%. (75 resources each)

    OR alternatively

    • Reduce the costs of Cutter's infantry by 10%
      • Marines - 90 resources
      • Flamethrowers - 90 resources
      • Spartans - 270 resources

    Those are my suggestions and thank you Robot again for listening to the fans.

    EDIT: Interesting suggestion by Cyrus Phoenix.

    • Reduce the cost of buildings and building upgrades by 20%
      • This is Cyrus Phoenix's original numbers and his original suggestion. I expect Robot to fully test those numbers and see if they need to be be tweaked properly up or down, but it's a great suggestion. The reason I put it up here in the original post is because it makes sense.
      • Captain Cutter is in charge of all the military operations in Halo Wars. He is the one that gives permission to deploy bases which he then sends down from the Spirit of Fire. It would make sense that his bases (which already cost less because they start a tech level higher) should also be cheaper to fill out. I agree with this suggestion as another possible alternative to making Cutter playable. His buildings and building upgrades should be reduced by 20%.
      • Cheaper buildings also takes care of the problem I posted up in the first suggestion. With cheaper buildings the cost of the Elephant doesn't need to go down. It woulld allow Cutter to do the same thing I described in the first example while providing him a benefit that lasts the entire game like Anders and Forge.
  •  06-10-2009, 1:16 PM 618943 in reply to 618933

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    Aloysius:The choice was between upgrading a turret or letting you aim it. We went with upgrading a turret.

    Both is best, but being able to target it would be the better option IMO.  Sometimes the turret will shoot at a grunt when the leader is red bar standing right next to him. 



  •  06-10-2009, 1:18 PM 618944 in reply to 618937

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    But FJ, about 7-13 squads of flamethrowers can hold off an early PoR, and about that number can kill an arbiter, even with the first rage upgrade. Regular Marines with their grenades can do damage to the BC, and if you surround him with flamethrowers then they will put a lot of damage on him before he can vortex them all. I think that the leaders won't pose too much of a problem, but as with all things like this, one has to see it to be 100% sure.
    Im Allhere:
    Nocbl2:

    "Oh, hey, that saggy old cripple is too fast. Lets screw him over in a month."
    his chair ran low on batteries from zooming around all day long.
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