Here's an idea I've thought about now and then:

1. In addition to the 3 covenant leader options, you have the option of choosing Veteran Covenant

2. If you choose that, you do not get a Leader or Unique Units

3. Instead, all of your units, when produced, get veterancy stars equal to the current level of your Temple.  This is compensates for the military strength lost by having no Leader and Unique Units.  Already existing units do NOT receive the veterancy.

4. Over the first 120 seconds of the game, you receive 4 free supplies a second.  This is to compensate for the economic strength lost left by having no Leader and Unique Units (IE, less crate/hook grabbing).

For quick reference, here is what the Temple becomes:

Level 1(500): 115% offense/defense

Level 2(1000): 144% offense/defense

Level 3(2000): 194% offense/defense (heh, a full army of these vs. a trio of 14 star Spartanks would be fun to watch)

In short, it would be a Covenant that fights in an entirely conventional manner, rather than a Leader oriented manner.  They would also be a lot more dangerous late game.

wodan460:

Here's an idea I've thought about now and then:

1. In addition to the 3 covenant leader options, you have the option of choosing Veteran Covenant

2. If you choose that, you do not get a Leader or Unique Units

3. Instead, all of your units, when produced, get veterancy stars equal to the current level of your Temple.  This is compensates for the military strength lost by having no Leader and Unique Units.  Already existing units do NOT receive the veterancy.

4. Over the first 120 seconds of the game, you receive 4 free supplies a second.  This is to compensate for the economic strength lost left by having no Leader and Unique Units (IE, less crate/hook grabbing).

For quick reference, here is what the Temple becomes:

Level 1(500): 115% offense/defense

Level 2(1000): 144% offense/defense

Level 3(2000): 194% offense/defense (heh, a full army of these vs. a trio of 14 star Spartanks would be fun to watch)

In short, it would be a Covenant that fights in an entirely conventional manner, rather than a Leader oriented manner.  They would also be a lot more dangerous late game.

1. Sounds OK so far.

2. OK. still following

3. ...So IF Covenant survives till late game, they will be unstoppable. 3 Star Veterancy everything is ridiculous. I just don't think this would balance very well (or at all). Covenant will always build their temple within the first 3 or 4 sockets even if they didn't receive a leader for it, and that makes all their units from then 1 Star Veterancy...So basically they start with 1 Veterancy...

I don't know...I'd have to see this tested before I trusted it.

4. Fair considering that their hook taking will become significantly slower and harder without their leaders.

Overall though, fighting Covenant without their leader would be quite the experience.

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COMMON SENSE:
So rare it's a go'damn super power
Oooh, my Common Sense is tingling

DäRKSTäRxMëRC

You got me good, munn.

DaRKSTaRxMeRC:

3. ...So IF Covenant survives till late game, they will be unstoppable. 3 Star Veterancy everything is ridiculous.

Remember, it does NOT give 3 Star Veterancy everything.  It gives 3 Star Veterancy to newly produced units only.  Which means that they will wait to have their old army die through attrition before they can start reaping the benefits.  Given that the temple shape changes when it gets leveled up, their opponents should have fair warning of when the Covenant are going to become uber.

And yes, building a Temple before building any unit production is still pretty much mandatory, albeit for different reasons.  Ensuring that the build queues for leader and non-leader Covenant remain roughly the same makes it easier to balance.

Overall, you can expect the Covenant will be 1 star early-mid game, 2 stars mid-late game, and 3 stars late-very late game.

wodan460:

DaRKSTaRxMeRC:

3. ...So IF Covenant survives till late game, they will be unstoppable. 3 Star Veterancy everything is ridiculous.

Remember, it does NOT give 3 Star Veterancy everything.  It gives 3 Star Veterancy to newly produced units only.  Which means that they will wait to have their old army die through attrition before they can start reaping the benefits.  Given that the temple shape changes when it gets leveled up, their opponents should have fair warning of when the Covenant are going to become uber.

And yes, building a Temple before building any unit production is still pretty much mandatory, albeit for different reasons.  Ensuring that the build queues for leader and non-leader Covenant remain roughly the same makes it easier to balance.

Overall, you can expect the Covenant will be 1 star early-mid game, 2 stars mid-late game, and 3 stars late-very late game.

Covenant units are fairly easy to reproduce due to their economically inclined pricing. The fact is, all-game-long they will be using units of varying veterancies, minimum 1 star, Most often 2 star, and maybe 3 star. Regardless of whether you would have to wait (for your older units die) to get the higher veterancy, the covenant will now get way more bang for their buck.

But once again maybe it will be fair (up to 2 star veterancy but no higher) considering that they have no leader powers.

---

COMMON SENSE:
So rare it's a go'damn super power
Oooh, my Common Sense is tingling

DäRKSTäRxMëRC

You got me good, munn.

DaRKSTaRxMeRC:

Covenant units are fairly easy to reproduce due to their economically inclined pricing. The fact is, all-game-long they will be using units of varying veterancies, minimum 1 star, Most often 2 star, and maybe 3 star.

Regardless of whether you would have to wait (for your older units die) to get the higher veterancy, the covenant will now get way more bang for their buck.

But once again maybe it will be fair (up to 2 star veterancy but no higher) considering that they have no leader powers.

Keep in mind that upgrades give better bonuses to single unit types, and retroactively.  Take the Banshee, probably the best all around covenant unit.  Which is better, spending 200 to give it all Banshees a retroactive 25% increase in effectiveness AND a new ability, or spending 1000 to give all future Banshees built a 25% increase in effectiveness?  Even after you take into account the 1000 affecting other units, you have to be using a fairly diverse force, and actively building units the whole game, for the second temple upgrade to give a better pay off.  This applies doubly so for the third temple upgrade, which requires you to build a large enough force to hold enemies off while you save up a whopping 2000 resources, only for it to not benefit a single unit in that force.  Not to mention, if your temple gets blown up, you are back to producing 0 star units.

I do suspect that this system would encourage Covenant to play aggressive to the USNC's defensive.  If both sides simply build up to max pop, the majority of the Covenant units are still going to be only 1 star.  It makes sense for the Covenant to wage a war of attrition, as their replacements will be comparatively better.

wodan460:

Here's an idea I've thought about now and then:

1. In addition to the 3 covenant leader options, you have the option of choosing Veteran Covenant

2. If you choose that, you do not get a Leader or Unique Units

3. Instead, all of your units, when produced, get veterancy stars equal to the current level of your Temple.  This is compensates for the military strength lost by having no Leader and Unique Units.  Already existing units do NOT receive the veterancy.

4. Over the first 120 seconds of the game, you receive 4 free supplies a second.  This is to compensate for the economic strength lost left by having no Leader and Unique Units (IE, less crate/hook grabbing).

For quick reference, here is what the Temple becomes:

Level 1(500): 115% offense/defense

Level 2(1000): 144% offense/defense

Level 3(2000): 194% offense/defense (heh, a full army of these vs. a trio of 14 star Spartanks would be fun to watch)

In short, it would be a Covenant that fights in an entirely conventional manner, rather than a Leader oriented manner.  They would also be a lot more dangerous late game.

I like it... maybe change it to "for each temple upgrade they get a veteran star. That way everything wouldn't be three stars late game. Limiting to 2 stars seems reasonable to me, that way they still have to earn their 3rd star. Over all a good idea though.

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I'm the Angel of Death...

this idea could work with some thought...

three star units are basically immune to counters. i had a game once where all i built for 8 minutes were 3 flamers and 3 rpg marines. by the time they were 3 stars, they had killed 3 rebel bases and 20+ jackals, and fended off a RAGING ARBITER twice. 3 star fully upgraded jackals eat through ODSTs like they were pancakes, and they also turn leaders into DED, so the other covenant will have no leader advantage after tech 3.

mabey you could make it an upgrade in the temple, requiring the tech upgrade AND possibly a very expensive veterancy covenant

the way the covenant currently plays is contradictory to the books and H3. the covenant DO wage a war of attrition, sending thousands of grunts to die, slowly eating away at the human defenses. you could possibly make this a DLC game type (replace Keep Away, cause nobody plays that).

That way all the people who want to play as UNSC mowing down thousands of grunts while taking minimal losses can play against the covenant fanatics (ME) who want to send waves of grunts to soak up lead while raining plasma fire from wraiths in the back.

just my opinions... great idea though, much better than reinforcements where your extra cash becomes veterance. 

 

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Aloysius:

You hit a button and the Scarab turns into 20 Gauss Hogs.

The Search Bar:

I'm so cold and lonely, why won't you use me?

this is a bad idea because it would be impossible for hooks, they will be out teched and lose because a leader would just rush them and win when they have no bonuses. you will also have a hard time expanding and moving your units about.

the only good thing about using this may be on chasm where he can put up a temple and duel spam 1 star infantry at the enemy.

the balance is not good at all.

whitemage:

this is a bad idea because it would be impossible for hooks, they will be out teched and lose because a leader would just rush them and win when they have no bonuses. you will also have a hard time expanding and moving your units about.

the only good thing about using this may be on chasm where he can put up a temple and duel spam 1 star infantry at the enemy.

the balance is not good at all.

Contrary to your opinion, i think that this could work great. sure, the gameplay is a little off balance, but that could be fixed. also, to stop a leader rush, the vets (thats my abbreviation for the new group) could just put up a hall, since not everything revolves around the temple early game. also, did you read his economy bonus? the vets get 4 crates/sec for the 1st 120 seconds of the game, warehouse or no, so they could easily expand to outboom the leader covs. a quick turret (or even 2 cause they get so much money) could stop a leader. plus, they still have a scout, so they are getting even more crates than any other leader. this WOULD WORK, so dont be a hater.

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Aloysius:

You hit a button and the Scarab turns into 20 Gauss Hogs.

The Search Bar:

I'm so cold and lonely, why won't you use me?

XxjimandjimxX:

whitemage:

this is a bad idea because it would be impossible for hooks, they will be out teched and lose because a leader would just rush them and win when they have no bonuses. you will also have a hard time expanding and moving your units about.

the only good thing about using this may be on chasm where he can put up a temple and duel spam 1 star infantry at the enemy.

the balance is not good at all.

Contrary to your opinion, i think that this could work great. sure, the gameplay is a little off balance, but that could be fixed. also, to stop a leader rush, the vets (thats my abbreviation for the new group) could just put up a hall, since not everything revolves around the temple early game. also, did you read his economy bonus? the vets get 4 crates/sec for the 1st 120 seconds of the game, warehouse or no, so they could easily expand to outboom the leader covs. a quick turret (or even 2 cause they get so much money) could stop a leader. plus, they still have a scout, so they are getting even more crates than any other leader. this WOULD WORK, so dont be a hater.

you will never be able to counter attack or expand... all he has to do is take map control and stop you.

a mono arbiter will rage anything you build...

marching slow army around the map would be slow and agonizing.

covenant is built around the leader. most of thier units are worthless without leader support.

you cannot launch an attack with this, all you can do is defend.

launching any attack would mean your base will die because locust or something will be droped in.

you cannot recall or manover troops around the map. unsc only work because they have hogs and pelican.

XxjimandjimxX:three star units are basically immune to counters. i had a game once where all i built for 8 minutes were 3 flamers and 3 rpg marines. by the time they were 3 stars, they had killed 3 rebel bases and 20+ jackals, and fended off a RAGING ARBITER twice.

How?  Their strength is only double. Halve the time it takes Jackals to kill a regular Flamer and that's how long it takes to take out the improved one.  You'd also have to repeatedly use up heal and repairs on the group.  If you challenge them with a small force, you are just asking to feed them though.

XxjimandjimxX:mabey you could make it an upgrade in the temple, requiring the tech upgrade AND possibly a very expensive veterancy covenant

As stated before, it takes a long time to for them to recoup the costs of the upgrade, in addition to missing out on a leader.

whitemage:you will never be able to counter attack or expand... all he has to do is take map control and stop you.  a mono arbiter will rage anything you build...

[1 Star Vet/Defense Gauntlet] Jackals deal 150 DPS vs. Covie Leaders, hell, [1 Star Vet/Peon] Grunts deal 97 DPS vs. Covie Leaders, and something tells me they will cost more for the Arby to rage than they do to build while they're at it.

Put simply, they have more supplies and better units.  1 Star Jackals vs. Hooks will equal easily secured Hooks and 2/3 Star Jackals, which in turn equal dead Arby.  Good luck taking out a Hook with a 2/3 Star Grunt or Jackal on it.

whitemage:marching slow army around the map would be slow and agonizing.

Ghosts and Banshees aren't slow.  I'd still probably allow Covie units to teleport from Grav Lift to Grav Lift, something they can almost do anyways.

whitemage:covenant is built around the leader. most of thier units are worthless without leader support.

Which is why they are all toughened up.  They deal more damage per second, and they survive for more seconds, it adds up rather quickly.

whitemage:you cannot launch an attack with this, all you can do is defend.

launching any attack would mean your base will die because locust or something will be droped in.

The only thing that can get back to base anyways is the leader, and I love it when my opponent saves me the trouble of having to kill their leader and army at the same time.

SMART covenant players build shields.

whitemage:unsc only work because they have hogs and pelican.

Huh.  I never use the former beyond early crate collection, and use the latter extremely rarely.  Good to know that I didn't use a workable build getting up in the top 50 a while back, and repeating the process currently with the same.

Pelicans and Recall will not save your ass from an invading army, its much more efficient to use them offensively than defensively anyways.  Its much simpler to make sure that your attacking army is a bigger threat.

This will occur easily if you have Shields and commit any reasonable amount of anti-building DPS to your forces.  By the time they can even touch your buildings, you've already wrecked half of theirs

 

wodan460:

XxjimandjimxX:three star units are basically immune to counters. i had a game once where all i built for 8 minutes were 3 flamers and 3 rpg marines. by the time they were 3 stars, they had killed 3 rebel bases and 20+ jackals, and fended off a RAGING ARBITER twice.

How?  Their strength is only double. Halve the time it takes Jackals to kill a regular Flamer and that's how long it takes to take out the improved one.  You'd also have to repeatedly use up heal and repairs on the group.  If you challenge them with a small force, you are just asking to feed them though.

XxjimandjimxX:mabey you could make it an upgrade in the temple, requiring the tech upgrade AND possibly a very expensive veterancy covenant

As stated before, it takes a long time to for them to recoup the costs of the upgrade, in addition to missing out on a leader.

whitemage:you will never be able to counter attack or expand... all he has to do is take map control and stop you.  a mono arbiter will rage anything you build...

[1 Star Vet/Defense Gauntlet] Jackals deal 150 DPS vs. Covie Leaders, hell, [1 Star Vet/Peon] Grunts deal 97 DPS vs. Covie Leaders, and something tells me they will cost more for the Arby to rage than they do to build while they're at it.

Put simply, they have more supplies and better units.  1 Star Jackals vs. Hooks will equal easily secured Hooks and 2/3 Star Jackals, which in turn equal dead Arby.  Good luck taking out a Hook with a 2/3 Star Grunt or Jackal on it.

whitemage:marching slow army around the map would be slow and agonizing.

Ghosts and Banshees aren't slow.  I'd still probably allow Covie units to teleport from Grav Lift to Grav Lift, something they can almost do anyways.

whitemage:covenant is built around the leader. most of thier units are worthless without leader support.

Which is why they are all toughened up.  They deal more damage per second, and they survive for more seconds, it adds up rather quickly.

whitemage:you cannot launch an attack with this, all you can do is defend.

launching any attack would mean your base will die because locust or something will be droped in.

The only thing that can get back to base anyways is the leader, and I love it when my opponent saves me the trouble of having to kill their leader and army at the same time.

SMART covenant players build shields.

whitemage:unsc only work because they have hogs and pelican.

Huh.  I never use the former beyond early crate collection, and use the latter extremely rarely.  Good to know that I didn't use a workable build getting up in the top 50 a while back, and repeating the process currently with the same.

Pelicans and Recall will not save your ass from an invading army, its much more efficient to use them offensively than defensively anyways.  Its much simpler to make sure that your attacking army is a bigger threat.

This will occur easily if you have Shields and commit any reasonable amount of anti-building DPS to your forces.  By the time they can even touch your buildings, you've already wrecked half of theirs

 

pelicans and hogs are needed for map control on hooked maps for unsc. leaders are able to keep you at your base and thats all they have to do. you will get out produced once the 2 min is over. camping your base would be easy and countring everything you make is easy since you can't really scout, all they have to do is kill your ghost.

you will lose because only a few units will be viable to use and they will be countered.

whitemage:pelicans and hogs are needed for map control on hooked maps for unsc.

So I got into the top 50 of the 1v1 leaderboards how?  And retain my position in the top 160 or so how?

wodan460:

whitemage:pelicans and hogs are needed for map control on hooked maps for unsc.

So I got into the top 50 of the 1v1 leaderboards how?  And retain my position in the top 160 or so how?

Magic, Black Magic.

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Forge FTW.
3 accounts in the top 50 1v1 standard.
Good 1v1 standard non-asian Forge player
45 TS For 1v1

URL of the week:
http://wwp.greenwichmeantime.com/time-zone/usa/pacific-time/

It is black magic.

 

This is not a good idea for covy.

 

But a great idea for a vastly different 3rd faction. Lol, No leader powers, but stronger units via veterancy. Dbomb brings veterancy by 2 stars to make it more level. Covy leaders are 1.6x effective against there units. which will equal out in the end. 

 

Call them the flood, package it in halo wars title and you got your self a nice multiplayer sequel.

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httP://www.lazyfrog.us