Why Ghosts Beat Warthogs & Why Anders Sucks

Last post 06-29-2009, 5:42 AM by VGamerJoe. 404 replies.
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  •  06-13-2009, 10:32 PM 622711

    Why Ghosts Beat Warthogs & Why Anders Sucks

    Balance changes:

    1.  Gauss warthog gauss cannon damage bonus against units with heavy armor (Scorpions, Wraiths, Scarabs, Locusts) reduced so that tanks will stay as a viable option to counter warthogs.

    I'm a little concerned about this one.  People don't understand how easy it is to counter gauss it's not even funny.  I guess because lower level players don't rush, it let's the other lower level players to get gauss and win.  A simple tank rush can beat this, a brute rush, arbiter, ghost, wraith.  It's not that hard.  The only problem i would see is iEchoic's little 3:30 gauss rush with Anders and Forge.  I honestly think gauss is fine the way it is, but people complain because they don't want to rush and then they get swarmed by gauss hogs, which you won't have enough tanks in time.

    2.  Warthog build time slightly increased to restrict how fast players can mass and replace warthogs during the game.

    I think this is the 2nd worst idea in this update.  Warthogs are needed for early defense.  Again, a turret will help with that, but it's one of the only ways to harass a covenant player early game.  Gunner warthogs don't do much damage, but still, they can easily kill the prophet and slowly kill the chieftain.  i give this a thumbs down.

    3.  Anders bonus to tech build rate reduced to further balance the leader.

    This is by far the worst idea for a video game.  Anders is already the worst of the UNSC.  Why make her even worse?  She has to upgrade her base and her supply pads.  That's just horrible!  Her economy bonus does not stand against the others, unless of course you do that iEchoic 3:30 gauss rush.  If you play her without giving her money, she's the worst.  Her Gremlins are my favorite unique unit though.

    4.  Base turrets attack and health boosted slightly to increase turret viability in early and late game.

    I would rather have an aim assist with turrets.  

    Here's the problem with turrets:

    1. They are absolutely fine early game; this is the only thing that's not a problem.
    2. Upgraded turrets (railgun, missle launcher) are too weak.  Plasma mortar is great though. A full army of hornets can kill 4 missle turrets only losing 3 hornets I believe.  Maybe two.  I'm not sure.  Canister shell tanks can kill turrets in one canister from two tanks.  It may only be one.  A viable solution is just making railgun and missle turret have more hitpoints.  The damage is considerable for their job.

    5.  Elephant health increased to improve survivability and viability as a unit.

    This is great.  Love the idea.

    6.  Grenade/ Plasma grenade / RPG damage against medium armor (warthogs, ghosts, choppers, wolverines and cobras) increased to both better balance marines/ grunts against warthogs and to improve marines overall against players who try to turtle with wolverines and cobras.

    I think this is a great idea as well.  Cobras would still own all infantry trying to come in there.  Of course you could get super carpet bomb and destroy most

    of their units trying to turtle.

    7.  Recycle basic cost return fixed to be 50% for constructed buildings.  (While a technically a bug, this directly impacts many slightly exploitive strategies)

    Here's my thoughts on this.  I absolutely hate it.  A viable fix would be to just fix the temple.  Make it 250 for recycle.  That's the only real problem.  If you already nerf warthogs, why even give 50% recycle?  There's no point.  It's more strategic.  You have many options open for you.  You can make turrets to prevent a rush, recycle them for later, without their knowing if you still have them. 

    A lot of people build two reactors, and once they have enough money, get a double reactor, and delete the old one.  Now you will only get back 250.  That's just horrible and makes the game a lot slower.  The only thing that was really exploited was the recycle temple and purchase 5 grunts.  Of course people got reserves to get gauss hogs faster, but if you nerf them, why hurt their economy by doing the 50% recycle? 

    If ROBOT at least decices to keep the 50% for the next patch, they can make the prophet speed higher again.  Honestly, the prophet's speed was not exploited.  It was his speed along with deleted the temple to get 500 supplies back so you could use his beam.  Of course, his speed does not need to be just as fast as when he's flying.  He was intended for hit and runs!  But he was just way too fast!  You shouldn't have made him this slow.

     If they do the 50% recycle, I will quit the game, as UNSC will suck, or until they patch the game again and put it back to normal but fix the temple recycle exploit.

    Complaints from random threads:

    http://www.halowars.com/forums/3/621682/ShowThread.aspx

    Wraiths are not weak.  They're cheaper and good for a rush.  The only real counter are railgun turrets and spartans.  A turret will easily kill one wraith with ease.

    Arbiter OP?:

    Are you kidding me?  Honestly?  Do you not know how to beat the arbiter?  ROBOT intended him to take out armies!  Well, if you don't like rushing, that may be why you think the arbiter is OP because you allow him to get all his upgrades and destroy your entire army you build for however long.  Rush the arbiter!  I rush him with about 15 ghosts in 3 minutes. He can't win.  He won't have any resources to destroy all my ghosts, plus more ghosts are headed towards his base as he kills them with this resources.  He can't win.  If you don't like rushing, I'm sorry.

    Anders:

    She is the worst of the UNSC.  I don't care what you say.  No game will last long for her to tech up everything for her economy to actually be useful.  Honestly, she has to upgrade all of her bases, and supply pads.  That is enough for me to not use her.  Check my stats.  See how many times I've used her.  Of course she could get gauss (even though I can beat her to gauss with Cutter without any bonus reactors from one base).

    There's my conclusions.  Hopefully the top players see it as I do.
    Thanks for reading!


    Obama Health is garbage
  •  06-13-2009, 10:42 PM 622726 in reply to 622711

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    oh boy.....


    Gamertags- LoC SnOwGhOst


  •  06-13-2009, 11:10 PM 622736 in reply to 622726

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    Cookie Krisp:

    oh boy.....

    Sorry if you saw that as "blocks of text" :(


    Obama Health is garbage
  •  06-13-2009, 11:11 PM 622737 in reply to 622726

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    yes and no
    hi my gt is ultimatedeath91 i play halo 3 & halo wars
  •  06-13-2009, 11:16 PM 622739 in reply to 622737

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    hahahaha..you beat Arbiter with a ghost rush?

     

    Can we please play 1 v 1?


    Gamertag: x CH0SEN 1 x and xIx JAGUAR xIx
  •  06-13-2009, 11:17 PM 622740 in reply to 622736

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    When will people realize that it's NOT a gauss rush that is the problem, it's a gauss spam. Even with the right counter-units, you will be overwhelmed by superior numbers and tech. You say that a rush can counter it, right? That's only if the other player can't counter rushes at all. Most rushes are very easy to shrug off, and all the Anders player has to do is throw a few turrets up to slow your rush way way down. Not only that, but three gunner hogs kiting your base will be able to kill anything that is being built, and if you were focusing on a rush then you probably won't have turrets.

    What I am trying to say is that all the Anders has to do is counter a rush, which is generally easy, and then gauss spam like normal. Even if you can get enough counter-units out in time, they probably won't be upgraded and will be fighting against tech 3 units that can rip right through them. 

    A ghost rush vs. Arbiter? Hmm... I use it against the prophet sometimes, but I guess it would be way too expensive for him to fight the ghosts. I have to try that sometime. 


    Im Allhere:
    Nocbl2:

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    his chair ran low on batteries from zooming around all day long.
  •  06-13-2009, 11:21 PM 622743 in reply to 622711

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    The way i look at this patch (sadly) is just an update, for a game that changes it, i'm not happy about all the changes(anders eco nerf), it's going to change it, just like PoR nerf changed how people used PoR, I'm gonna see how it's like, but it's like playing all random everygame, it changes, you might not get your best leader everygame, but next you might, if you get a leader your not good with, try it and see how it goes,(u cant do anything else obviously).

    i agree on all of your points, but it's just changes(that might make it worse) but just see what it's like robot aren't idiots (i hope).

  •  06-13-2009, 11:22 PM 622744 in reply to 622736

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    VGamerJoe:
    Cookie Krisp:

    oh boy.....

    Sorry if you saw that as "blocks of text" :(

    I think what he was trying to say was you are a big fine gentleman. :)


    Gamertag: x CH0SEN 1 x and xIx JAGUAR xIx
  •  06-13-2009, 11:22 PM 622745 in reply to 622736

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    VGamerJoe:
    Cookie Krisp:

    oh boy.....

    Sorry if you saw that as "blocks of text" :(

    I think what he was trying to say was you are a big fine gentleman. :)


    Gamertag: x CH0SEN 1 x and xIx JAGUAR xIx
  •  06-13-2009, 11:34 PM 622750 in reply to 622745

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    Chosen Beast:
    VGamerJoe:
    Cookie Krisp:

    oh boy.....

    Sorry if you saw that as "blocks of text" :(

    I think what he was trying to say was you are a big fine gentleman. :)

     

    yeah human is a huge fine gent omg he sux0rs.

    I really dont have a say in this patch, because i play in TS 30 in all playlists, and i dont face any strats that are OP. But i do agree that the warthog time building nerf is BS, thats the only one i can say i back because no matter what level of skill you play on you know that hogs are key for early game. But building recycling will suck for me because i use it a lot, but i've never had an opponent do it to me so i cant be all like OMG BAD IDEA because ive never had it exploited to me.

     

    so who wants to be the pro to show me everything that is OP?


    Message me on XBL for 1v1's. I will fit on your shace.

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  •  06-13-2009, 11:44 PM 622758 in reply to 622740

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    Supermeep:

    When will people realize that it's NOT a gauss rush that is the problem, it's a gauss spam. Even with the right counter-units, you will be overwhelmed by superior numbers and tech. You say that a rush can counter it, right? That's only if the other player can't counter rushes at all. Most rushes are very easy to shrug off, and all the Anders player has to do is throw a few turrets up to slow your rush way way down. Not only that, but three gunner hogs kiting your base will be able to kill anything that is being built, and if you were focusing on a rush then you probably won't have turrets.

    What I am trying to say is that all the Anders has to do is counter a rush, which is generally easy, and then gauss spam like normal. Even if you can get enough counter-units out in time, they probably won't be upgraded and will be fighting against tech 3 units that can rip right through them. 

    A ghost rush vs. Arbiter? Hmm... I use it against the prophet sometimes, but I guess it would be way too expensive for him to fight the ghosts. I have to try that sometime. 

    I know the spam is the problem.  But spam won't do anything if they nerf gauss to tanks.  I mean, I beat 4 grizzlies with ghosts.  I lost 40 units, but I still killed them, lol.

    Yeah, it does work against arbiter.  He won't have enough money.  I used to do it with jackals, but it takes forever to get them across the field.

    But if  you brute rush the Anders player, like Vrong does, he does it to slow them down and slow down the economy.  If you do that, you're at an advantage already.


    Obama Health is garbage
  •  06-14-2009, 12:25 AM 622780 in reply to 622758

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    I really don't agree with much of what you said, but I will comment on the 50% price for recycled buildings. My thoughts:

    • This was a bug. Simple. They never intended for it to be 100%. They are fixing it.
    • Every, let me repeat, EVERY RTS out there recycles for a fraction of the cost of the building. It's part of the ABC's of RTS design. Tried and proven RTS design.
    • 100% recycle cost removes any risk involved with decision making. When you upgrade stuff and then delete your reactors, you essentially got those upgrades for a much lower price than intended. Those buildings are not rentals.

    This change for sure will go through. I would suggest not wasting your breath on it. A bug fix to a core design principle in RTS. They won't let it be. So if you're gonna quit over it, I'd pack it up now :)  

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  •  06-14-2009, 12:27 AM 622781 in reply to 622780

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    Kinslayer:

    I really don't agree with much of what you said, but I will comment on the 50% price for recycled buildings. My thoughts:

    • This was a bug. Simple. They never intended for it to be 100%. They are fixing it.
    • Every, let me repeat, EVERY RTS out there recycles for a fraction of the cost of the building. It's part of the ABC's of RTS design. Tried and proven RTS design.
    • 100% recycle cost removes any risk involved with decision making. When you upgrade stuff and then delete your reactors, you essentially got those upgrades for a much lower price than intended. Those buildings are not rentals.


    This change for sure will go through. I would suggest not wasting your breath on it. A bug fix to a core design principle in RTS. They won't let it be. So if you're gonna quit over it, I'd pack it up now :)  

     

    Exactly

     

    Now I need to get Hoju to read that.


    Gamertags- LoC SnOwGhOst


  •  06-14-2009, 12:31 AM 622784 in reply to 622781

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    blah blah blah im mostly against turret buff.

    Clan-BTB Bogart that Blunt
    Must smoke trees
    I vote to ban little kids
  •  06-14-2009, 12:36 AM 622789 in reply to 622784

    Re: About the patch, improvements, advice & tips

    Hojubobdan:blah blah blah im mostly against turret buff.

     

    Cause it hurts your arbiter, lol.


    Gamertags- LoC SnOwGhOst


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