Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

Last post 07-08-2009, 12:58 AM by Grand Patriarch. 1310 replies.
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  •  07-06-2009, 3:41 PM 646173 in reply to 646135

    • champ5
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-08-2009
    • With the Arbiter getting Chicks:Buffy Da Body
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    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    TheProfeshonal:
    champ5:
    TheProfeshonal:

    The longer warthog times are a good idea.  The hog rush is really OP and really.. I think the only fix to that is longer build times for hogs or better turrets, which they are doing.  I think the turret buff would've been fine enough, but that fact that the ghost is just crap compared to a hog, i think it balances them both out..   The hogs are scouts and the scouts shouldn't be the main part of most players army.  The main infantry should be the main piece..  You don't see covy players strollin out with wraiths , banshees and about 8 ghosts..     but you always see about 8-10 hogs in a well versed UNSC army..   I think the fixes they are adding are very good and D@mn near a perfect balance boost..

    good job Robot.

    I hope you know there is such thing as a Ghost rush and, sadly, people have won games swarming their enemy with 40 ghost with in 7-9 mins of the game. Ghost and Hogs have been used the wrong way and turrets getting a buff will stop that. But other than that, I agree with you, I especially like how they tried to improve Cutter and his elephant and RPG get a boost on medium armored vehicle.

    Yea I know that people ghost rush and get wins that way too..  but realistically, more people hog rush before they ghost rush.  and I agree, both rushes are sad when they win, but I think the better days are ahead.  and Cutter's ele deserves some improvement..  

    I agree, I feel as though Cutter should rise above all.


    A real man will die fighting
    But a BETTER man will live prepared to fight

    Words of a violent Monk 666
  •  07-06-2009, 7:14 PM 646375 in reply to 618941

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    First, I just made this account after watching the forums and playing the game for a long time.

     I would think that if you coupled the 'bases start at one higher level' with 10% off of all infantry that it would be a good boost for cutter. Cutter is specialized all infantry anyway. Cutter needs the advantage, he is GREAT in late game but actualy getting to the late game is hard for him, at least when I play him.

     I actually played a game one the 3v3 ice level as cutter, and hung in the game for almost an hour on the edge of defeat, all because of 1 hog and ODST, now admitadly my allys were great at giving them something else to do besides find/attack me but the whole reason i was alive, and even won that game was because of the ODST drop ability. Like I said, great late game, and very hard to kill, but only if you get that far first.


    So long as there is a Moon,
    Flowers will never die....
    and neither will us Wolves.
  •  07-06-2009, 9:41 PM 646458 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    Timotron:

    I am involving the community a little bit earlier in the process this time around and sharing the first pass balance changes that we are testing internally at the moment.  

    Your feedback and discussion are welcome as long as everyone stays polite and gracious to each other.  This thread will be heavily moderated so that we get the best feedback, so if your post gets removed, please try to rephrase it in a more constructive manner.

    Caveat: The balance items are still somewhat in flux and as such I am not posting the exact numbers we are testing but rather the general balance ideas we are testing.  note: We will share final numbers when the title update is closer to completion when we write the final title update notes.

     *** Note: Updated with final patch notes for the balance changes that I am sending in for final function/ bug testing ***

    Balance changes:: 

    1.  Gauss warthog gauss cannon damage bonus against units with heavy armor (Scorpions, Wraiths, Scarabs, Locusts) reduced so that tanks will stay as a viable option to counter warthogs.  

    Final:: Gauss damage with a 0.6 modifier (down from 0.8), which is a 50.0% damage boost instead of a 100% damage boost against tanks over earlier warthogs.

     

    2.  Warthog build time slightly increased to restrict how fast players can mass and replace warthogs during the game.

    Final:: Warthogs will take 3 additional seconds to the build (25 seconds).

     

    3.  Anders bonus to tech build rate reduced to further balance the leader. 

    Final:: Anders research bonus changed to be 75% of the base time to research techs instead of the previous 50%.  (the cost reduction remains at 50%)  

     

    4.  Base turrets attack and health boosted slightly to increase turret viability in early and late game.

    Final:: We finalized on a 5% boost to base turret health and damage after extensive testing we feel that a small buff was warranted but that overall the turrets can function just fine in the early game but the player has to choose to use them and sacrifice some supplies.

     

    5.  Elephant health increased to improve survivability and viability as a unit.

    Final:: Elephants gain a 20% boost to health, which when combined with the infantry grenade buff works out rather well.

     

    6.  Grenade/ Plasma grenade / RPG damage against medium armor (warthogs, ghosts, choppers, wolverines and cobras) increased to both better balance marines/ grunts against warthogs and to improve marines overall against players who try to turtle with wolverines and cobras.

    Final:: Grenades gains 25% additonal damage against medium armor ground vehicles.

     

    7.  Recycle basic cost return fixed to be 50% for constructed buildings.  (While a technically a bug, this directly impacts many slightly exploitive strategies)

     

    *** Other items we have investigated internally ***

    8. Investigated changes to the Arbiter rage power for heal and strength, but with internal data and looking closely at what we had time to do for the upcoming title update, we have decided the data did not warrent a change to the Arbiter at this time.

    9. Investigated mainline infantry base damage against air but looking at the numbers and the data from games played, we feel that the infantry are within bounds for their role at this time.

    10. Investigating reports of shield generator exploit that causes shields covenant base shields to re-raise during combat, we have a repro (thanks to those that sent in the repro steps) and we are looking at a fix now to hopefully include in the title update.  

    11. As I have noted before the reinforcement exploit with cutter MAC blast is fixed in this title update.

    *** One additonal change which impacts balance ***

    12. *new*  Locked down bases when unlocked will now release units inside very quickly, which means that when under attack a player can now build a fighting force while locked down and then release them all at once instead of having them destroyed peacemeal.  Fighting off a rush or hiding what you a building against scouts is now a viable choice for both the UNSC and the Covenant.

     

    note: there are other bug fixes in the title update as well but those will be covered when we wrap up the title update and write the final patch notes. 

    This all looks great, I just want to say one thing about the warthogs, all of their upgrades are damage output, mg turret, grenadier, and guass. Maby a better solution isnt to nurf their attack, though that would certainly work, but to nerf their defense.  also, they are the unsc special unit equivalant of a scarab. they should be powerful.  (more minor) i would  try a test for this, the scarab cannot be upgraded, if you make it so reserves doesnt affect hogs, combined with the added make time, they will have to pick between few strong ones, or alot of weak ones.

    (off subject) i would add that somethng needs to be done about 3v3 prophet rushes, 3 beams on your bases is out of control. i would recomment making them build their prophet (heros in general) like spartans, and not give them a free one.


    So long as there is a Moon,
    Flowers will never die....
    and neither will us Wolves.
  •  07-06-2009, 10:56 PM 646519 in reply to 646458

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    lol the PoR is a sad excuse for a leader nowadays =(
  •  07-07-2009, 12:44 AM 646578 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    God I hope the path finding gets tweaked in this patch.. that is all.

    ~I can show you a real Tunnel Snake Amata~
  •  07-07-2009, 1:03 AM 646588 in reply to 641997

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    Count Peter:
    BLa5ter NZ:
    Cookie Krisp:
    BLa5ter NZ:
    Cookie Krisp:
    BLa5ter NZ:
    Cookie Krisp:

    Obito:Cookie, do you honestly think the Arbiter needs a nerf?

     

     

    There are some aspects of him that need to be toned down. Right now, there is no way for brute chieftain to beat arbiter. Arbiter is better in every possible scenario (even a straight up hammer vs sword fight).

     

    He also shouldn't kill certain units for less resources than it costs to produce them. Hunters need more resistance, and the elephant should take atleast $450 in rage money to kill. Beating arbiter with cutter is stupidly hard considering that arbiter doesn't build a single unit.

    No he doesnt i tested it and the brute beats the arbiter in a straight up fight, at all techs, i tested it, also the vortex beats the rage at all techs too.

     

    brute only wins at tech 1. I don't think you tested it, lol. Arbiter wins by a mile after tech 1.

     

    Rage is 10x more effective than vortex. 

    1 on 1 the vortex beats the rage cos the vortex delivers the damgage fasteri did this on t3 brute and arby with a friend, his vortex beat the rage

     

     

    I was talking about them fighting without the use of y-abilities. Your scenario isn't realistic since no arbiter is gonna rage your brute chieftain to death. He'll just rage all your units. Arbiter can kill your units much faster than brute can kill the arbiters units.
     

    Yes I know the rage is a better power and I agree it takes down the armies better, but if it was 1 on 1 with no other units then the brute will win, thats all im saying

    I would have to disagree as well. I have tested it myself with a freind who is never anything but BC, and I who barely uses the Arbiter at all (prophet all the way)

     We found that the Cheiften beats the Arbiter without the use of the Y ability, but if they both use the Y ability, the Arbiter decimated BC everytime (no stars or anything and full upgrade)

    the brute as the stun when fully upgraded, so the arbi will be useless
    Believe, trust, have fate
  •  07-07-2009, 1:21 AM 646607 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    i have an idea for #7, the main problem is that people denie others points by destroying their own buildings before they are dead, first i think it would be better if the points are based off of % of unit health anyway overall, so if you kill 1/10 of a tank, you get one/tenth of the points you would have gotten, this would help when your ally steals your kills with the mac anyway.

    short of that, and for the buildings only, you should only make them 50% resouce refund while they are under fire, that way if you make a armory, and are done with it, then switch it to a supply pad (or something similar) there is no harm done, however, if you destroy your armory so they dont get points, you lose half the resources (should be like 80% of whats left that you lose) that it is worth.

     but mostly the first thing is important, because you have situations all the time were you weaken something down to a sliver of health (like a hero that is worth alot of points/base) and they mac it, or target it and get the points before say your tank, can fire the main cannon again. with a point system that bases your base score on the amount of damage you inflicted to the enemy, as it is right now, but by the % of damage you did to one unit per unit, your score would reflect the amount of damage you did to them accurately, and you might even throw in the percentage of points you got to the whole team (represents the % of enemys you killed vs your team) 

    anyway, i hope you add those two things, i would love to see the more accurate point system. (even i steal kills a little, its tempting)


    So long as there is a Moon,
    Flowers will never die....
    and neither will us Wolves.
  •  07-07-2009, 10:57 AM 646782 in reply to 646607

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    bump!
    GT: EverCuteKitty
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  •  07-07-2009, 11:17 AM 646802 in reply to 646607

    • champ5
    • Top 200 Contributor
    • Joined on 03-08-2009
    • With the Arbiter getting Chicks:Buffy Da Body
    • Posts 1,035

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    I dont really understand what #7 is saying. I know recycled building usually give you all your money back,  but are they changing the amount of money given back to you? If so, then I have to becareful now and not press the wrong bottoms.
    A real man will die fighting
    But a BETTER man will live prepared to fight

    Words of a violent Monk 666
  •  07-07-2009, 12:04 PM 646844 in reply to 646802

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    Well I think those changes are great...but I think there are some other "things" should be changed as well:

     

    1.-Hunters....they are stupidly useless against Grizzlies...why?...because no matter how many hunters you have, even at full Tech, if you fight against a bunch of grizzlies you will lose the fight, cus the tanks will "Canishter Shell" you....(5 or 6 hunters less)...they pull back, recharge it and use it again....so you will lose all your hunters and have done nothing...many will say "you dont know how to move...or yes you can win...but the true is that grizzlies are too powerfull AGAINST hunters, that are suposed to counter them...I would be a good idea to add some armor to those hunters...

     

    2.-Why the UNSC Heavy Supply Pads gather faster than Covenant Blessed Warehouse?? That should not be!

    Well, those are some ideas... 

  •  07-07-2009, 12:25 PM 646857 in reply to 646844

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    um supply rates are the same for cov and unsc at both light and heavy pads, i don't know where you got that info but it's wrong
  •  07-07-2009, 12:31 PM 646861 in reply to 618917

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    i have an idea what about a frog unit thats is a giant frog that hops across the map with 3 gauss cannons and then theres a monkey leader who throws poop sticky grenades and gathers banana supplies and has a staff made of leaves and comes from tiki mountain and his upgrades include flying a unicorn that shoots fire out of his but and this y power makes sprinkles fly down from the sky
    G/T: Sayhhi2bo0yah, Sayhitobooyah
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  •  07-07-2009, 12:39 PM 646870 in reply to 618944

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    The only thing I don't like is they aren't nerfing arbiter a little.

     

    Sorry, but it's pretty ridiculous how much damage he can do to tanks even in the early game. Arbiter is fine for the most part, but Cannister Shell should not be required for 5+ scorpions to take down a lone arbiter >:(

  •  07-07-2009, 12:41 PM 646872 in reply to 646857

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview *Final*

    zTheMeatShield:um supply rates are the same for cov and unsc at both light and heavy pads, i don't know where you got that info but it's wrong

     

    I read it somewhere in HaloWars.com....but I dont remember...anyways I forgot to add another thing that I hate when people do it:

     

    Here is the situation:

    You attack an enemy's base...your units are damaging it....you are so close to destroy the base and suddenly, 1 of 2 thing happens:

    1.-Your enemy destroys the base and you get NO POINTS

    2.-An ally, that has just send a tank or a marine or anything, uses an RPG or just throws a MAC and....he gets ALL THE POINTS

     

    So, here comes my idea...why not players get POINTS equivalent to the damage done to the building/unit....example:

     

    You throw 3 MAC's to a Sacarb....you take away 75% of the unit's life....but a friend sends something and finishes the work (remaining 25% of life).....why dont you get 75% of the points and he gets just 25%??...Instead of having wasted 3 MAC's and have no reward

     

    And also if the enemy recicles the building you should get some points ( = % damage done)...so players dont just recicle a building when its just about to be destroyed 

  •  07-07-2009, 1:25 PM 646921 in reply to 646173

    Re: Title Update #3 balance notes preview

    If giving a % of damage done is not an option, then the buildings at bases should at least take time to recycle. It doesn't make sense that blowing stuff up gives you some money back. You should at least have to take it apart and put the supplies away (unless we get the % of damage points).
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