Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

Last post 05-07-2007, 8:36 PM by Rotaretilbo. 130 replies.
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  •  03-22-2007, 12:31 AM 46823 in reply to 46782

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    Yes, but the pelican combat role isn't as a gunship ground support aircraft. It has weapons but its primary role is to move soldiers and equipment from point A to point B. The pelican probably hovers one minute for every three hours it flies. The modern Harrier *can* hover, but really this is only feasible for a few minutes during take off and landing---it uses far to much fuel for regular use. I know a CH-53 helicopter can hover for hours and I'm pretty sure that a tilt rotor like the Osprey can do the same.
  •  03-22-2007, 10:53 PM 46928 in reply to 46823

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    This is 500 years in the future, they may not use the same fuel as we do. hell, they could be using Hydrogen, which is far more compressed and easy to carry large amounts of compared to consumption. A majority of land based vehicles, if not all, are hydrogen based in Halo. Its very possible to have the same propulsion in a turbo jet. There could also be far better and more effective ways to ignite and propel an excellerant explosively. Have you seen how small the pelican jets are? Where does the propellant come from and how does it remain in the air for such a long time? The engines on the pelican could very easily be adapted to smaller, more nimble aircraft and move it at a much higher speed due to its loss in wieght and cargo. For example, some smaller planes used the same engines of bombers to acheive a higher speed and maneuverability. If I am not mistaken the Corsair and possibly a Mustang did this. I might be wrong, but that is how it is usually done in the military. A larger aircraft's propulsion is adapted for smaller aircraft to make for a faster and more agile one. Although most smaller aircraft require large modifications such as directional thrust and upgraded computer assistance to keep the craft in control.

    Propellers are one of THE most vulnerable types of propulsion, because aircraft that rely on such propulsion have no other option than to fall to the earth if it is lost. Helicopters may be maneuverable, but there is a reason they are coupled with ground troops, to get the fire away from them. They aren't assault vehicles, but support craft. They aren't meant for frontline service necessarily, at least today. Prop driven aircraft are also mainly used for transportation. The only existing assault aircraft with propellers used for main maneuverability are Helicopters, which as I said are support craft\ and are only truly effective when coupled with the assistance of Air and Land support. You know why Helicopters rarely get shot down? Because the Air Force gains air superiority before they fly, and ground troops usually take care of the majority of enemy infantry and armor. Helicopters are purely assisting aircraft.

     



    Chaos is the score upon which reality is written.
  •  03-22-2007, 11:38 PM 46935 in reply to 46928

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    hmm....hydrogen is flammable yes?

    cuz if its not, the pelis cna't run on it, cuz the ladning pads in Halo: The Flood get doused in the pelican fuel and set ablaze 


    Signature removed. - Thunder
  •  03-23-2007, 12:20 AM 46941 in reply to 46928

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07


    I really suggest you read my entire post.

    "....they could be using Hydrogen, which is far more compressed and easy to carry large amounts of compared to consumption..." No, that's wrong. Although hydrogen has a low mass, it is one of the least energy dense fuels, even in a liquid state (liquifying hydrogen requires immense amounts of energy, while plausible when you have fusion power). Actually the hydrogen fuel is one of the things in Halo I find the least plausible.

    Here's a cite (you can wiki this too if you like):

    "Hydrogen has more energy per unit mass than other fuels (61,100 BTUs per pound versus 20,900 BTUs per pound of gasoline).  The problem with hydrogen is that it is much less dense (pounds per gallon) than other fuels.  A gallon of gasoline has a mass of 6.0 pounds, the same gallon of liquid hydrogen only has a mass of 0.567 pounds or only 9.45% of the mass of gasoline.  Therefore one gallon of gasoline yields 125,400 BTUs of energy while a gallon of liquid hydrogen yields only 34,643 BTUs or 27.6% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline.   The Space Shuttle uses hydrogen as a fuel, because its mass is low, and the fuel is carried in an external fuel tank that is jettisoned during lift off.  Automobiles can not have external fuel tanks that are discarded, and the energy per unit volume is used to determine a fuel’s energy density in automobiles.  Compressed gaseous hydrogen is even less dense than liquid hydrogen.  At 5,000 psi of pressure gaseous hydrogen only has a density of 0.25 pounds per gallon or one twenty fourth the density of gasoline.  Gasoline and diesel are far superior fuels to hydrogen in this regard." http://www.dalefield.com/slspartners/hydrogen_fm.html


    "...Its very possible to have the same propulsion in a turbo jet..." Yes, and you can use energetic radioactive particles from a nuclear reactor to create a jet--it's been done before. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Pluto
    If only you could shield the reactor... 

    "Have you seen how small the pelican jets are?" The engine's themselves look like they are about 15 feet long   http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Image:PelicanII-Sil.gif    the little exhaust ports are small, but that's not at all remarkable.

    "Where does the propellant come from and how does it remain in the air for such a long time?" I'd like to think that it uses some form of miniaturized nuclear power, fission or fusion, to turn turbines combined with some sort of fuel (even hydrogen if you like). The effect achieved is a jet engine that, with much stronger future metal alloys, can achieve very high compression but also has the benefits of being able to fly out of atmosphere because it has a contained fuel source instead of needing to breathe atmospheric air. 

    "The engines on the pelican could very easily be adapted to smaller, more nimble aircraft and move it at a much higher speed due to its loss in wieght and cargo." The Sparrowhawk probably does use jet engines like the pelican's, but as you said they are there to make it go fast.

    "Propellers are one of THE most vulnerable types of propulsion, because aircraft that rely on such propulsion have no other option than to fall to the earth if it is lost." The Sparrowhawk doesn't rely on just hoverfans, it also has wings and jets for horizontal flight.

    "Helicopters may be maneuverable, but there is a reason they are coupled with ground troops, to get the fire away from them. They aren't assault vehicles, but support craft." If you consider the role of a bomber to be support, or artillery's role as to provide support, then yes--attack helicopters are in a "support" role. "The only existing assault aircraft with propellers used for main maneuverability are Helicopters, which as I said are support craft\ and are only truly effective when coupled with the assistance of Air and Land support." No unit is effective by itself. What about the AC-130 Specter (look it up on youtube for an awesome display of firepower)? Why does the cutting-edge F-35 joint strike fighter have a lift assist fan if they are so crappy?

    "You know why Helicopters rarely get shot down? Because the Air Force gains air superiority before they fly, and ground troops usually take care of the majority of enemy infantry and armor. Helicopters are purely assisting aircraft." That's a matter of opinion, in vietnam our helicopters were effective even without air cover, in afghanistan the Soviet Hind was so succesful that the muhajedeen said that "We do not fear the Soviets. We fear their helicopters."

    You keep talking about improvements in technology, but you haven't mentioned improvements in fibers and metals. The fact that there is a giant space elevator in Halo 2 means that they've made a material with several times the tensile strength of kevlar, I'm betting this technology existed 30 years before Halo 2.

    Also, the Sparrowhawk isn't really even a helicopter, hover fans are just the part of it that allow for it to hover in place efficiently.

     

  •  03-23-2007, 12:33 AM 46944 in reply to 46823

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    were in halo 2 is there a space elervator????

  •  03-23-2007, 12:59 AM 46946 in reply to 46941

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    In Vietnam, Helicopters dropped and ran, they didn't fight. There was plenty of air support, and little anti-air weaponry at that time, especially in Vietnam. Not to mention that this isn't Vietnam, and Vietnam isn't happening now. Helicopters aren't an experiment anymore, they are used in their proper place. They had no air superiority in Afghanistan either, nor did they have anti-air because it was taken down. All they had was tanks and infantry.

    Hydrogen can be compressed to a far greater density, and is far cleaner burning. Sure, it may not weight the same, but you get far more energy from it than gasoline, with little byproduct. There are many alternate fuels, even ones we may not be able to harness yet. Who knows, they could be fueled by water, there is someone who invented a plasma torch to run off water, as well as his car.

    15 foot long jet pods? I think you need to look at a size chart. From what I see on Bungie's scale chart, 15 feet is about half the length of the pelican, at most they are 5 or 6 feet long on the wings, and maybe 5 feet on the aft thrusters. It also directed thrust from the main engines to the ground to stay aloft through 6 smaller thrusters, keeping the entire propulsion system compact and efficient. Unfortunately the wiki doesn't detail the fuel it consumes.

    And about the F-35... i said, and I quote "main maneuverability", the F-35 does not require the fan to be operational for take off and landing, which makes it a less than vital piece of the craft, more of a luxury really. On the sparrowhawk, the fans are a main part of its operation as an effective combat craft, not to mention they are clearly visible and out in the open, unlike the F-35. It would be very simple to get one out of the combat zone by simply shooting out a fan or both, forcing the ship to accelerate to stay in the air, even if it could accelerate that fast.

    And answer me this...
    Why do they use Titanium armor plating in space if they have invented such tensile materials? I'm pretty sure Titanium is a common metal these days. I have read all 4 books, as well, I am not ignorant in that area. Which is why I dont agree with the propulsion, it just doesnt fit the UNSC's style.



    Chaos is the score upon which reality is written.
  •  03-23-2007, 9:06 AM 46963 in reply to 45024

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    Also, the sparrow hawk isn't lifting a 100+ ton tank, or marines, or Spartans. Also probably cheaper
  •  03-23-2007, 9:06 AM 46964 in reply to 45024

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    Also, the sparrow hawk isn't lifting a 100+ ton tank, or marines, or Spartans. Also probably cheaper
  •  03-23-2007, 9:08 AM 46966 in reply to 46935

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    in response to ninjatheory, thats also from the book, and the Halo books aren't perfect on universe accuracy.

  •  03-23-2007, 9:12 AM 46967 in reply to 46928

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    It seems that since the UNSC is based on Marines, that they would have choppers, since the marines rely on their infantry backed up by armor and air support. This hawk isn't an air superiority fighter, it's a mobile anti-armor platform and Elite hunter. The Navy would have control of air superiority, nameley the Shadowsword bomber.
  •  03-23-2007, 12:34 PM 46988 in reply to 46944

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    GruntKillr:
    were in halo 2 is there a space elervator????

     http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Space_elevator
     

  •  03-23-2007, 12:35 PM 46989 in reply to 46967

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    unclekulikov:
    It seems that since the UNSC is based on Marines, that they would have choppers, since the marines rely on their infantry backed up by armor and air support. This hawk isn't an air superiority fighter, it's a mobile anti-armor platform and Elite hunter. The Navy would have control of air superiority, nameley the Shadowsword bomber.

    Exactly, it's an armor buster. 

  •  03-23-2007, 1:10 PM 46991 in reply to 46946

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    "Hydrogen can be compressed to a far greater density, and is far cleaner burning. Sure, it may not weight the same, but you get far more energy from it than gasoline, with little byproduct. There are many alternate fuels, even ones we may not be able to harness yet. Who knows, they could be fueled by water, there is someone who invented a plasma torch to run off water, as well as his car."

    Did you read my post? Did you read my cite? No, I've factually disproved you, you're wrong, you're opinion violates the laws of physics. Your opinions != to facts.

    "15 foot long jet pods? I think you need to look at a size chart. From what I see on Bungie's scale chart, 15 feet is about half the length of the pelican, at most they are 5 or 6 feet long on the wings, and maybe 5 feet on the aft thrusters. It also directed thrust from the main engines to the ground to stay aloft through 6 smaller thrusters, keeping the entire propulsion system compact and efficient. Unfortunately the wiki doesn't detail the fuel it consumes."

    If you had read carefully you would have seen that I cited the size chart, and I'll do it again http://halo.wikia.com/wiki/Image:PelicanII-Sil.gif and that it is 30 meters long, not 30 feet long.

    "And about the F-35... i said, and I quote "main maneuverability", the F-35 does not require the fan to be operational for take off and landing, which makes it a less than vital piece of the craft, more of a luxury really." For vertical take off and landing it does require the lift fans, and this is essential when operating from a small airstrip or from a ship without an aircraft catapult.


    "On the sparrowhawk, the fans are a main part of its operation as an effective combat craft, not to mention they are clearly visible and out in the open, unlike the F-35.  It would be very simple to get one out of the combat zone by simply shooting out a fan or both, forcing the ship to accelerate to stay in the air, even if it could accelerate that fast." It would be just as simple to shoot a Pelican's jet engines (ask Echo 419 if you don't believe me). And again, it has jets and wings for forward flight, I'm betting the liftfans are there to make it hover more effectively.

    "Why do they use Titanium armor plating in space if they have invented such tensile materials? I'm pretty sure Titanium is a common metal these days." You obviously don't know what tensile strength is, or why it would be important to an atmospheric aircraft.  Also, they use Titanium A , do you know what Titanium A is? The books never say what exactly it is, I don't know myself. Are you sure it's not some super strong alloy that isn't normal Titanium? Why aren't the spaceships made of Mjolnir armor's ceramic plate, it's superior right? (It's a matter of scarcity)

     

     

  •  03-23-2007, 1:16 PM 46994 in reply to 46946

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    UL71M4 G33K:
    Who knows, they could be fueled by water, there is someone who invented a plasma torch to run off water, as well as his car.

    That's the way nearly all hydrogen is obtained, the plasma torch doesn't run off of water, it runs off of hydrogen that has been separated from water through electrolysis (very energy intensive process). Although it might make sense if you have a fusion powered space ship that can just gulp up an entire lake to transform in hydrogen fuel, it is by no means an energy efficient process.

     

  •  03-23-2007, 1:55 PM 47015 in reply to 45154

    Re: Halo Wars Update 03.12.07

    you people forgot about teh flood
    " I stay here until all others have gone. I will make sure I am the last one to be here. And when I am, I shall make a thread. A memorial thread. And I shall leave these forums behind. " - Offensive Bias
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