Halo Wars Balance Feedback *updated*

Last post 12-14-2009, 6:30 AM by Needles129. 507 replies.
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  •  11-11-2009, 2:00 AM 770097 in reply to 769843

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Timotron:1. Buffing the Scarab from a fully upgraded tech level 3 Covenant unit to a "super" tech unit on par with Grizzly's, Hawks and ODST.

    While it would be an exceptionally unique change that might introduce an entirely new element for players to experiment with(some might even play Halo Wars just to use the Super Scarab and make strategies revolving around it), I can't comment on this until I know at least what type of changes will be made to the Scarab.

    However, double Scarabs are already a handful to take, so I assume some sort of balance will be made to adapt to the new strength(say, 30 pop). 

    2. Buffing the Hunters Assault Beam upgrade so that Hunters can track fast moving vehicles like warthogs.

    Agreed, though I might also suggest some sort of very slight buff against Canister Shell attacks and Warthog ram as well.  Perhaps a small tweak to the explosive and warthog ram damage multiplier against heavy infantry. 

    3. Fixing the Grunt squads needler upgrade so that they keep their damage bonus against Air craft.

    I think everyone can agree on this.  Though again, I might also suggest some sort of damage boost against light vehicles to make them more effective against warthogs.  Because anyone who's ever tested it out ought to know by now that Deacon Grunts do NOT counter Gauss Hogs. 

    4. Nerfing the Arbiter during Rage so that he takes more damage from attacks.

    I personally don't feel this is necessary.  As I have played with a mono-Arbiter in many games, I can definitely say that he's not quite as overpowered as most people feel.  I would maybe suggest increasing the damage he takes from jackals and flamers, as a round of canisters can easily ERASE him in seconds, as well as Wolverine Volleys.  It's just the covenant that has the most problems with him, mostly because their units have much lower health in comparison(which means he kills more covie units and regains more health), and there's no disruption bomb to stop him.

    He's already vulnerable to instant kill glitches, which can easily destroy the hard work you went through to get a 3 star Arbiter.  His suicide grunts also tend to fall into a glitch where they go into suicide mode, but they don't move at all. 

    5.  Nerfing the Gremlin by adjusting the vehicle and its upgrades up one tech level, making Gremlins a tech level 2 vehicles with the first upgrade available at tech 3 and the final upgrade at tech 4.

    I can definitely agree on this point.  At only 1 population per unit and an effectiveness that outshines the Cobra, this is a small price to pay. 

    We are still adjusting final numbers on these changes and investigating other changes so we want feedback on these changes and other suggestions for other changes or bugs that need fixing.

    I make these next suggestions with just one question in mind: "Do they do the job they're SUPPOSED to do?"

    Wraiths

    Yes, these things will kill infantry, but nowhere near as effective as Scorpions, which is understandable when you consider the costs.  But don't you think it's a little embarrassing when ODSTs can blow them apart so easily, even if they ARE super units?  And ODSTs are by far the weakest super unit.  I have also only rarely seen them counter Gauss Hogs, and only after getting Plasma Modulator.  In fact, their building damage is nearly nonexistant prior to getting Plasma Modulator.  I also believe that Wolverines will tear them apart with ease, and even moreso if those Wolverines are kept on the move.

    The Wraiths' biggest weakness is its inability to hit a moving target, even one as slow as a Scorpion tank.  While I'm not saying Wraiths are meant to be thrown against Scorpions, it's a definite problem against the vehicles they SHOULD counter like warthogs and Wolverines.

    Scorch is a bit of an odd Y ability.  I'm not 100% sure if it inflicts the DoT on surrounding targets it hits, or targets standing on the ground where it lands.  If it's the latter however, it is again ineffective against moving targets(say, a raging arbiter).  I also can't say the damage is that much greater than its regular attack.

    Marines/Grunts

    This doesn't include the ODST super units here.  Perhaps it's because I only play 3 vs 3 UA, but I have NEVER seen people make these units, at least not more than 6 in a match.  Only Cutter makes them, and only because he will eventually upgrade his infantry to ODSTs.  Even in the few 1 vs 1 matches I've played, I was the only one to use them, and only because I picked Cutter, and I lost most of my matches with them.

    While tweaking them could potentially break the game balance and make it ridiculously easy to win simply by spamming them, I believe I have a solution that everyone can agree with.

    You tweak the damage multiplier values so that most general attacks do less damage to them, aside from anti-infantry weapon types.  As it is right now, Gauss Hogs have attacks with a high multiplier against main infantry(Ram = 2x, Gauss = 1.6x), and that's mostly why marines won't consistently counter the hogs, and will sometimes end up being countered by the hogs as well.  And against Scorpions, you typically lose 1 tank for every 10 ODSTs killed.  Against Medic Marines it's even worse.  Usually flamethrowers are typically never called for.

    With what I'm proposing, infantry would be able to serve as viable meat shields.  As it stands right now, they die so fast that it would simply be more cost effective to spam counter units rather than mix in infantry to guard them.  I've seen a failed attempt to place 30 ODSTs between 5 Cobras and the opposing Grizzly army simply because the Grizzlies tore through the ODSTs like a hot knife through butter without using Canisters, and reached the Cobras in seconds.

    Again, with this change, you can potentially add a new tactical element to the game.  If that Grizzly army wants to pass that chokepoint spammed full of ODSTs, Forge had better make some Oxide tank Flamers, or spend the next 5 minutes trying to get through.  And it goes doubly so if there are deployed Cobras on the other side, sniping just outside the range of the Canister Shells, not killing the tanks as fast as a full Cobra spam(or 10 of them), but gaining more and more veterancy as time passes.  

    And imagine a raging arbiter trying to rage an army of grunts with about 15 Jackals mixed in.  He'll rage and rage, but he'll never hit the jackals, and it'll take him forever to kill off all the grunts.  And all the while, those grunts are going to take their sweet time marching over to his base and tear it down very slowly.

    While the damage might need to be toned down to keep it balanced(it'll be a problem if ODSTs start to counter tanks), it's a sacrifice I'm willing to make if it means that mainline infantry can actually be real cost-effective meatshields.  The bare minimum I'm shooting for is so that this will force people to make anti-infantry instead of just spamming tanks as usual for the same effect.

    I'd like to avoid any health changes to infantry so that anti-infantry units and turrets will be just as effective as it always was.  Thus again, forcing people to use anti-infantry.

    Brute Choppers

    As it is right now, nobody has any reason to use these units.  As a supply collecting unit, they're far too expensive to be cost effective at that job.  Better to use the initial chopper you start the game with and the leader to do that.  As a scout unit, a Banshee can do the same job with much more effectiveness and better use later in the game(as Banshees are very good when spammed).

    The Chopper can't deal with air units at all, so they are the only scout unit that doesn't soft counter air.  While the Ram deals good damage after the final upgrade, poor pathfinding and AI makes it impossible to use more than 10 at the same time.  It also isn't practical to try and micro each Chopper to Ram an individual unit.  The Autocannon does very poor damage against just about everything except maybe infantry.  I say with no exaggeration that a single Brute infantry squad will outdamage a single Chopper firing its autocannons.  There's also the issue of the Chopper not being able to move and fire at the same time(mostly).  That is because the autocannons only fire straight forward, much like the Wraith.  But unlike the wraith, it can't face one direction while moving in another.  Thus, they have little to no potential for hit and run tactics.

    While it does decent against infantry, that doesn't justify using them over Jackals for that role.

    Considering that Warthogs have more health(6727) than the Choppers(3642) and that the Warthogs get a higher damage multiplier on later upgrades, I can think of no better change than to drop the cost and population of the Choppers to match the Warthogs. 

  •  11-11-2009, 2:03 AM 770099 in reply to 770073

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Arbiter 1337:

    I'm actually quite disapointed with this patch. I feel your trying to please everyone, and not actually balance the game. Pleasing everyone is good, but sometimes, not everyone knows whats best.

    1. Scrab buff is a good idea, reducing cost/tech or what ever your doing seems good. But a nice ol path fidning patch would be very nice. The Scarab gets confused trying to walk over a small pebble.

    2. I agree, nice fix.

    3. Grunts really did suck against air. I suppose fixing this aspect will help them, but really though, they need a bit more than this to become anywhere near usefull.

    Those I agree with what your doing, I have many problems with the final two.

    4. I am torn as to wheather the Arbiter needs a nerf or a buff. On one hand, you have a leader that can not beat other leaders in 1v1, and in teams, the Arbiter is good. But, I do feel however his Rage is a little to OP. Early game, if the Arbiter finds a small group of Hogs, they all die. Now, I agree if the Arbiter player was skilled or lucky enough to find them, and saved up money to Rage them, then the Arbiter should be able to kill them. What I dont agree with however is the fact the Arbiter will take no damage. So this nerf is acceptable, if the numbers are changed correctly. But, I think you should address other reasons. Perhaps if it was possible to rage and attack units in reactors, that would be sweet.

    5. NO! Do not do this. Alot of people have been complaining about Gremlins, and I do agree they are perhaps a little too OP. Early game in 1v1 they can be used to bully Forge and Cutter into a corner, but I think rather than bring them down to an acceptable level, you've been listening the the cries, and your detorying them. This patch will hit greamlins too hard, and make them unuseeable, in anything but low level 3v3 games. Without these, Anders economy is really going to slow her down now. Anders can now not keep up with Forge or Cutter. Both of them can out Hog Anders, and afford turrets, and to tech Flamers ready to counter the Marines Anders will have to make.

    Rather than making the power of the unit, equal to the tech required to build, why not nerf the power of the unit. Why not make it take a little more damage against Warthog type damage. I think this will be a good nerf for the gremlin. It can still be used early game, but its not as deadly. Hog can sorta kill them. Nerf it so the Gremlin becomes a sort of soft counter, rather than a hard counter.

     They should do much less damage to infantry, so Marines are a counter, rather than getting kited.

    Perhaps even reduce the building damage a bit, so basicly the unit only becomes a stun, rather than a stun and kill.

    Don't change the tech required to build a gremlin, just change the power of the unit.

    I very much feel you've quickly put together a patch you thought people wanted to hear, rather than trying to balance the game. Please don't do anything hasty, and think about an actual solution. Don't just stick a band aid on this, and hope the problem goes away.

    I would also like to suggest that we you press the D-Pad button to jump to your units, that it doesn't jump to units in hooks. VERY annoying. Also, Suicide grunts need alot of fixing. If you could give me a littl feed back on this, I would appriciate it, and I would know your listening to us.

     

    The Arbiter is at a disadvantage in 1v1, yes, but not THAT big of a disadvantage.

    The only real bad matchups he has is PoR/BC on Pirth/Chasms.


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  •  11-11-2009, 2:51 AM 770106 in reply to 769843

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    How about just add a pop cap to gremlins.....I think allowing only 5 or so would be kinda cool. No need to nerf. 

     Arbiter should then be buffed out of rage give him a chance to get away

  •  11-11-2009, 3:19 AM 770110 in reply to 769843

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Everything sounds good except with nerfing the Arbiter during rage. Now before everyone starts attacking me here is why I say this. I play the Arbiter most of the time and unlike the prophet or the brute chieftan while the arbiter is using his special I find he tends to be erratic often not even going after the targets I try to have him attack, which is okay I guess against smaller armies, but against big ones this leaves him a bit vulnerable. Not to mention his random teleportations and dying while fighting air units. It is just lucky that he does slightly more damage so that I have more time to correct his movements and hopefully get him to hit the right target. I understand why people want him to be nerfed I am just afraid that if he gets nerfed in the wrong way he may become more of a useless unit then anything else.

    Also as an aside from the Arbiter, and I'm sure other covie players will agree, is there anything you guys can do about the accuracy of the wraith tanks?


    Ah the mind. Such a frail thing. I will enjoy shattering yours like glass!
  •  11-11-2009, 4:07 AM 770113 in reply to 770110

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    I rarely post on here, but if you're going to make the arbiter suck ass, at least keep him viable. Make him able to attack units in hooks.

    Taking more damage in rage sounds fine imo. In all honesty, you can rage and take no damage in the best conditions. In the worst conditions, or near, arbiter can't do *** and insta-dies to a d-bomb anyway. 

    I'd love to play the arbiter in 1v1 more often, but slowly losing due to poor map control really blows. 

  •  11-11-2009, 5:58 AM 770122 in reply to 769854

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    LaZy FrOg:

    Arbiter Nerf = :'(

     

    He should be made Easier to target, not weaker when attacking. He is alread UnderPowered in 1s, and only decent mid game in 2s/3s . Nerfing him could make him useless all together. 

     

    Gremlins need to be fixed so they are still viable. Making them OUT of reach for anders is making them tech 2 to build. xD. She cant defend her self anymore in 1v1. Forge can afford to pump gunner like anders and build turrets, and anders cant. Cutter can do that too. 

     

    Anders needs a eco boost, if gremlins get nerfed by that much. And every covy will be like 10x better then anders now too. 

     

    hunters patch =D, but it should be for all level of hunters, because the fact that VEHICLES, SOFT counter infantry makes it so there multiplier is too high for hunters. 

     

    Wraiths buff in Standard? and possibly a Nerf of 1 tier in DM?

     

     

     

    Apart from the Arbiter nerf which i'm happy about, i agree with this 100%. 

     

    Forge will be able to overwhelm an anders now in 1v1, that's completely destroying the gremlin, why not just increase its cost and make it 2 units?

    Wraiths passive and main attack need a boost, you can't go tanks vs forge and hope to come out on top. Changing armor type of Hunters would be really nice too, they are anti vehicle and yet they struggle against a full pop of tanks and wolverines. How often do you make it to beam in a game anyway, it won't help...


    Before you critisise someone, try to walk a mile in their shoes. That way, you're a mile away and you have their shoes.
  •  11-11-2009, 6:01 AM 770123 in reply to 770122

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Im gna get sick of all the POR mirrors and prophet v forge games, all I can say. Screw it buster is teaching me his uultimate brute strat. Seriously only viable leaders are POR Forge/Cutter and super ultimate buster brute

  •  11-11-2009, 6:07 AM 770124 in reply to 769843

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Timotron:There is no date official or unofficial at this point for a potential TU. We will update you when we have one.


    In an potential upcoming title update we are investigating making the following balance changes to Halo Wars, as such I am opening up for feedback as we continue work on refining our balance pass.

     

    Balance Changes

    1. Buffing the Scarab from a fully upgraded tech level 3 Covenant unit to a "super" tech unit on par with Grizzly's, Hawks and ODST.

    Don't give it an instant buff, give it an upgrade from the grav lift. Scarabs have a surprise factor that UNSC doesn't. And they are mainly for distrction.

    2. Buffing the Hunters Assault Beam upgrade so that Hunters can track fast moving vehicles like warthogs.

    Your not buffing overall damage right? Hunters already eat up infantry.

    3. Fixing the Grunt squads needler upgrade so that they keep their damage bonus against Air craft.

    Ok, but compared to marines, they are decent anti air.

    4. Nerfing the Arbiter during Rage so that he takes more damage from attacks.

    If you do this, nerf the other leaders. Arbiter won't stand a chance if this goes on.

    5.  Nerfing the Gremlin by adjusting the vehicle and its upgrades up one tech level, making Gremlins a tech level 2 vehicles with the first upgrade available at tech 3 and the final upgrade at tech 4.

    I'm ok with this. I'm not sure if it matters much. Anders will still be fine. Now we can expect grenadier hogs before gremlins.

    We are still adjusting final numbers on these changes and investigating other changes so we want feedback on these changes and other suggestions for other changes or bugs that need fixing. 

      

     


    What you know is now wrong.
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  •  11-11-2009, 6:13 AM 770125 in reply to 770124

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Why is everybody saying Anders is useless? She can get gunner faster than everyone. I think Studs barracks 1st strat will be much more useful.
    What you know is now wrong.
    The truth can't set you free because your bound to the lie. Give up, the electricity that binds you shocks your very existence. I win.
    Elecbound-Play to win.
  •  11-11-2009, 6:19 AM 770126 in reply to 770125

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    forge/cutterhave the econ for a turret + hogs whislt still making money for the heavy units they can literally wear her down with continual hogs so she never gets t2 and never gets her anti hog.
  •  11-11-2009, 7:22 AM 770128 in reply to 770126

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Nice everything sounds great. EXCEPT!! The Arbiter Nerf! Please don not mess with him. He is fine the way he is. I know a good arbiter player is irritating if you let him get out of control by letting him get stars/ killing your units and not throwing a d-bomb. IMO he is perfectly fine but his SG on the other hand are really stubborn, I need to listen when I tell them to take a hook this would be a better fix. I could list the many ways to kill an arby but there are just TOO many.
  •  11-11-2009, 7:22 AM 770129 in reply to 770097

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Noctis made some very good points in ealier post.

    -wraiths do need some help.  Their scorch damage is pathetic and they get stomped by ODST spam.  They have difficulty countering guass hogs and wolverines as well.

    -choppers are too expensive (cost and population) and don't counter air or infantry anywhere near as good as ghosts.

    -hunters need some resistance to explosive attacks.  The ram damage should stay same against heavy infantry so that ghosts can still counter flamers by running into them.

    -grunts/marines being able to counter warthogs would be very good as right now it takes a huge population (grunts + hunters) of infantry to counter simple hog spam.  It is more like the hogs counter the infantry (soft and hard counters) because of the ram followed up by gauss.  I think that slightly increasing mainline infantry resistance to small arms/machine gun/guass damage would make them more viable (a 1.6 multiplier is quite a lot).

     

    -I am looking forward to gaining an anti-air infantry option with grunts.  This will open up a lot of strategies.

     

    -Thanks for taking our feedback.

  •  11-11-2009, 8:47 AM 770137 in reply to 770036

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Klunk:It is only fine gentlemen who can't stop an arbiter, why should good players suffer game changes made to help lesser skilled players.
    Why should 5% of the population dictate the changes?

     


    Baron vOn Instinct
  •  11-11-2009, 9:21 AM 770146 in reply to 770137

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    ANTIMANGINA:

    Klunk:It is only fine gentlemen who can't stop an arbiter, why should good players suffer game changes made to help lesser skilled players.
    Why should 5% of the population dictate the changes?

     

    Good point.

    The good players should be the main influence to getting balance. The bad players problems can be fixed by getting better.

     


    Arbiter is 1337!
  •  11-11-2009, 9:32 AM 770153 in reply to 770146

    Re: Halo Wars Balance Feedback

    Arbiter 1337:
    ANTIMANGINA:

    Klunk:It is only fine gentlemen who can't stop an arbiter, why should good players suffer game changes made to help lesser skilled players.
    Why should 5% of the population dictate the changes?

     

    Good point.

    The good players should be the main influence to getting balance. The bad players problems can be fixed by getting better.

     


    True after all we all went straight for scarabs and boomed at some point right. right?

    Im up 4 the changes just i feel sorry for arby i just hate how 10 canister shells are aimed for him yet about 3 hit and take his health down by half

    Seriously i hit my own base with a canister shell attack and did damage.

    if any leader ability needs nerfing i think the prophets should that beam chews up buildings and units like nothing and combined with a scarab = dead full pop grizzlys

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